Hellmann
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- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
Hellmann
First of all my apologies for posting a message in English. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the German Language.
I'm writing here to try to find out more about the German part of my family and ideally some heraldic references.
The coat of arms used by the italian branch of the family can be seen in the attached links.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ppen_1.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ppen_2.jpg
these were the "arms" used by Major Johannes Hellmann (Austrian Army) which married in the early 19th century a venetian widow (countess Maria Felicita Bertrand-Renier) and have been used since by the "Italian" Hellmann family.
The latest known contacts between the Italian Hellmanns and their German relatives dates back to the pre-WWII period.
At the time our German relatives lived in Glogau and run a publishing business. I have some letters between my great-grandfather and his not-so-distant cousin Oskar Hellmann - unfortunately I am not able to translate them!
I also have only one out of the six volumes published by our relatives which gathered the family history which I understand was originally from Koln then moved to Moravia (and Italy).
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/librar ... e+Hellmann
Is there anyone in this forum who can help me in finding more information about the family as well as heraldic references in official german/austrian archives / wappenbuchs.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Giovanni
I'm writing here to try to find out more about the German part of my family and ideally some heraldic references.
The coat of arms used by the italian branch of the family can be seen in the attached links.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ppen_1.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ppen_2.jpg
these were the "arms" used by Major Johannes Hellmann (Austrian Army) which married in the early 19th century a venetian widow (countess Maria Felicita Bertrand-Renier) and have been used since by the "Italian" Hellmann family.
The latest known contacts between the Italian Hellmanns and their German relatives dates back to the pre-WWII period.
At the time our German relatives lived in Glogau and run a publishing business. I have some letters between my great-grandfather and his not-so-distant cousin Oskar Hellmann - unfortunately I am not able to translate them!
I also have only one out of the six volumes published by our relatives which gathered the family history which I understand was originally from Koln then moved to Moravia (and Italy).
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/librar ... e+Hellmann
Is there anyone in this forum who can help me in finding more information about the family as well as heraldic references in official german/austrian archives / wappenbuchs.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Giovanni
- Claus J.Billet
- Heraldiker
- Beiträge: 6775
- Registriert: 22.11.2004, 08:57
- Wohnort: 70794 Filderstadt
- Kontaktdaten:
Wappen "Hellmann"
eingetragen in der Sammlung DWR
(Deutsche Wappenrolle)
Herold, Berlin,
Bd. 2, Seite 15
www.wappen-billet.de/forum/Hellmann.jpg
(... nur zum Abgleich, dieser Link wird kurzfristig wieder entfernt)
eingetragen in der Sammlung DWR
(Deutsche Wappenrolle)
Herold, Berlin,
Bd. 2, Seite 15
www.wappen-billet.de/forum/Hellmann.jpg
(... nur zum Abgleich, dieser Link wird kurzfristig wieder entfernt)
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- Beiträge: 6
- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
Thanks so much and WOW that was quick! Yes definately the same coat of arms!
One big question... What does the text say? apologies again for my lack of understanding of the German Language...
Also... I see that, like in one of the two images I have posted, the coronet in that coat of arms seems wrong (six spikes? what is it?).
I thought that it was simply a mistake made by some italian who did not know about heraldry... but know there is another specimen with the same strange crown...
Any ideas?
One big question... What does the text say? apologies again for my lack of understanding of the German Language...
Also... I see that, like in one of the two images I have posted, the coronet in that coat of arms seems wrong (six spikes? what is it?).
I thought that it was simply a mistake made by some italian who did not know about heraldry... but know there is another specimen with the same strange crown...
Any ideas?
- Claus J.Billet
- Heraldiker
- Beiträge: 6775
- Registriert: 22.11.2004, 08:57
- Wohnort: 70794 Filderstadt
- Kontaktdaten:
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- Beiträge: 6
- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
- Rabenschwarz
- Mitglied
- Beiträge: 182
- Registriert: 31.01.2013, 02:50
- Wohnort: unter'm Stein
Hallo Herr Billet!
Hier eine Übersetzung von Giovanni Franza Hellmanns letzter Frage/
Here a translation of Giovanni Franza Hellmanns last Question:
because the artist know about the existence of one other with five spikes?
Schöne Grüße/warm greetings, Josh
Hier eine Übersetzung von Giovanni Franza Hellmanns letzter Frage/
Here a translation of Giovanni Franza Hellmanns last Question:
@ Giovanni Franza Hellmann: do you mean the Crown with six spikes where taken,Vielen Dank + WOW, das war schnell. Ja, definitiv das selbe Wappen!
Eine wichtige Frage…was meint (inhaltlich) der Text? Entschuldigund noch mal für meine fehlenden Kenntnisse der deutschen Sprache…
Außerdem…mir viel auf, das in einem meiner beiden, geposteten Bilder die kleine Krone verkehrt zu sein scheint (sechs Spitzen, was hat das auf sich?).
Ich denke, daß es, ganz simpel, der Fehler eines italienischen Künstlers war, der nicht gut über Heraldik Bescheid wußte…aber wußte, daß es ein anderes Exemplar mit der selben außergewöhnlichen Krone gibt…
...hat jemand Ideen?
because the artist know about the existence of one other with five spikes?
Schöne Grüße/warm greetings, Josh
Heil sér þú
ok í hugum góðum.
Þórr þik þiggi.
Oðinn þik eigi.
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- Beiträge: 6
- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
@Rabenschwarz
I mean that the 6 spikes crown seems "heraldically" speaking wrong (I do not really have a vast knowledge of heraldry but crowns with 6 spikes do not seem right to me).
I Always thought that the image I posted was wrongly painted by an italian artist which did not know what an "Adelskrone" was.
In fact the other image I posted has the "right" crown.
However also the image Claus found had a 6 spikes crown and I wonder if that has ever been used in "classic" german heraldry or should be considered a mistake.
Thanks a lot!
I mean that the 6 spikes crown seems "heraldically" speaking wrong (I do not really have a vast knowledge of heraldry but crowns with 6 spikes do not seem right to me).
I Always thought that the image I posted was wrongly painted by an italian artist which did not know what an "Adelskrone" was.
In fact the other image I posted has the "right" crown.
However also the image Claus found had a 6 spikes crown and I wonder if that has ever been used in "classic" german heraldry or should be considered a mistake.
Thanks a lot!
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- Mitglied
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- Registriert: 09.08.2005, 13:20
As to the coat of arms „HELLMANN of Cologne (1438)“
the text – after the description of the coat of arms - reads as follows:
„(Coat of arms according to the Letter of Nobility dated Vienna March 31, 1542 dedicated to JOHANN HELMAN in Cologne; the same coat of arms has been beared for a long time by the family of the applicant). Applicant: OSKAR HELLMANN, publisher and author in Glogau/Silesia. Registered [in Berlin by the Heraldic Society Herold] on July 8, 1931 No. 105.“
Often you find the non-heraldic c r o w n under discussion in the coat-of-arms of original J e w i s h families.
Regards
the text – after the description of the coat of arms - reads as follows:
„(Coat of arms according to the Letter of Nobility dated Vienna March 31, 1542 dedicated to JOHANN HELMAN in Cologne; the same coat of arms has been beared for a long time by the family of the applicant). Applicant: OSKAR HELLMANN, publisher and author in Glogau/Silesia. Registered [in Berlin by the Heraldic Society Herold] on July 8, 1931 No. 105.“
Often you find the non-heraldic c r o w n under discussion in the coat-of-arms of original J e w i s h families.
Regards
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- Beiträge: 6
- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
@Joachim v. Roy
Thanks! This is hugely interesting!
I notice that the heraldic collection here referred is very recent (1930's).
I wonder if anyone in the forum is aware of any older collection showing the Hellmann arms or has any suggestion where it could be researched.
Other questions: where j e w i s h families ennobled back in the XVI century? I was not aware of any j e w i s h ancestry in my family (probably because that would be really old).
Thanks! This is hugely interesting!
I notice that the heraldic collection here referred is very recent (1930's).
I wonder if anyone in the forum is aware of any older collection showing the Hellmann arms or has any suggestion where it could be researched.
Other questions: where j e w i s h families ennobled back in the XVI century? I was not aware of any j e w i s h ancestry in my family (probably because that would be really old).
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- Mitglied
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- Registriert: 09.08.2005, 13:20
In the „Armorial Général“, edited by the Dutch heraldist and genealogist Johannes B. Rietstap in 1884/87, you find the following descriptions:
"HELMAN: D'argent à la bande de sable ch. de trois têtes de lion d'or lampassées de gueules posées dans le sens de la bande. Supports: deux léopards lionnés d'or couronnés du même tenant chacun une bannière celle à dextre aux armes de Kerrenbroeck qui sont d'or à trois coqs de sable celle à senestre d'argent à une tour de gueules ouverte du champ (seigneurie de Grimberghe)."
i.e.: In a shield of argent (silver) a bend of sable (black) charged with three lions' heads of or (gold). Supporters: …
"HELMAN: Les armes de Helman barons de Longueville vicomtes de Grimberghe. Casque couronné. Cimier: un lion issant d'or couronné du même armé et lampassé de gueules. Supports: deux léopards lionnés d'or couronnés du même armés et lampassés de gueules tenant chacun une bannière celle à dextre aux armes de l'écu celle à senestre d'argent au sautoir de gueules et à la fasce d'azur brochant sur le sautoir."
i.e.: The coat of arms of the HELMAN family, barons of Longueville, viscounts of Grimberghe. … (see Grimbergen near Brussels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimbergen )
Regards
"HELMAN: D'argent à la bande de sable ch. de trois têtes de lion d'or lampassées de gueules posées dans le sens de la bande. Supports: deux léopards lionnés d'or couronnés du même tenant chacun une bannière celle à dextre aux armes de Kerrenbroeck qui sont d'or à trois coqs de sable celle à senestre d'argent à une tour de gueules ouverte du champ (seigneurie de Grimberghe)."
i.e.: In a shield of argent (silver) a bend of sable (black) charged with three lions' heads of or (gold). Supporters: …
"HELMAN: Les armes de Helman barons de Longueville vicomtes de Grimberghe. Casque couronné. Cimier: un lion issant d'or couronné du même armé et lampassé de gueules. Supports: deux léopards lionnés d'or couronnés du même armés et lampassés de gueules tenant chacun une bannière celle à dextre aux armes de l'écu celle à senestre d'argent au sautoir de gueules et à la fasce d'azur brochant sur le sautoir."
i.e.: The coat of arms of the HELMAN family, barons of Longueville, viscounts of Grimberghe. … (see Grimbergen near Brussels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimbergen )
Regards
Zuletzt geändert von Joachim v. Roy am 24.04.2013, 14:57, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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- Beiträge: 6
- Registriert: 24.04.2013, 09:46
Thanks all....
It's getting more and more interesting... In theory I would exclude relationship with the belgian family... However the arms are VERY similar.
Colours change a lot though...
In Italy Hellmann (2 "L"s and 2 "N"s) always used Gold+Blue... My distant relative Oskar registered Gold+Black and now we have a Belgian Helman family with the same arms but Silver+Black...
It's getting more and more interesting... In theory I would exclude relationship with the belgian family... However the arms are VERY similar.
Colours change a lot though...
In Italy Hellmann (2 "L"s and 2 "N"s) always used Gold+Blue... My distant relative Oskar registered Gold+Black and now we have a Belgian Helman family with the same arms but Silver+Black...
Gli Hellmann in Germania - esistono ancora.
Ciao, Giovanni, sono Michael di Berlino. Ti avevo già mandato due messaggini su Facebook. Forse no gli hai visti ancora. Comunque sia se gradisci degli informazioni supplementi sulla tua (nostra) famiglia, mandami una mail. L'indirizzo è michaelgose[at]hotmail[dot]com. Oskar Hellmann di Glogau fu mio bisnonno. A presto,
M.
M.