have family coat of arms but who does it belong to?

[HannaS]

Hello Everyone!
I am new to this forum/topic and hope you can forgive any mistakes I will make.
Although I can read and understand German writing is another story. Therefore, I will post in English and hope you can help in my search.
I have an old seal coat of arms inherited by my deceased father in law from his mother. Her name was Kirsch but my father in law said it was v. Kirsch. She was a Baltic German and was also of mixed German, Polish , Russian ancestry. The crest has a dove holding three arrows in its beak-unusual. Have not come across this anywhere. Since the coa is quartered I have found that in the upper leftside is the Polish Leszczyc coa or the German v. Leschitz (Siebmacher) wappen. There is also a boar (looks more like a domestic pig) on the upper right side. Below are possibly crossed (left lower side) batons or arrow quivers-I am not sure. The lower right could be the coa Kalusza (Polish). There is a ring around two batons?quivers. The middle shield has most probably two rows of arrows. I have looked everywhere and have not found this particulalr symbol combination. Not in Russian, Polish or German heraldry. I am at a loss. Since I don't have the color coa I am assuming the vertical and horizontal lines indicate the correct colors of red and blue. Don't forget, since this is a seal everything is a mirror image of the real coat of arms.
Any ideas would be helpful and appreciated. Thank You.

[Frank Martinoff]

The mystery has been unexpectedly solved. This coa is not German. It belongs to the Rimski-Korsakov family. This is something even my father in law did not know. I think that by posting the photo on your website good karma came into play.
Thank you for taking the time to read this post. Good luck everyone!

Nicht ganz so!

Rimsky- Korsakov Wappen
hat unten rechts eine Burg/Stadttor
oben Links einen Baer
in der Mitte ueber dem Herzschild eine runde Scheibe die ich nicht identifizieren kann.
(Schnalle od. Kompass)

Das Korsakov Wappen
hat unten rechts einen Turm und
oben links ein Schwein
und ueber dem Herzschild eine nach oben geoeffnete Mondsichel
mit einem Kreuz.

Bei Ihrem Bild ist die Verbindung nur durch die Helmzier/Oberwappen
erkennbar = Adler mit drei Pfeilen.

Vieleicht ist es ein juengeres/aelteres Kombinationswappen.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Frank Martinoff

[HannaS]

I understandwhat you are saying. However, my father-in-law always wore around his neck a thick chain with a seal which came down from his mother. He did not have a regular coa painting or anything else. He lived in the former East Geramany and was also a pow during WWII. His heritage was hidden. It was only after the Unification that he was able to get his father's coa and to have it registered in Germany. His mother's seal is about 1" in diameter. I am assuming that not everything could have fit on this small size. I have poured over all kinds of coa's-every nationality that is available on the Internet. The only time I ever came across a picture that looked like the seal is when I saw it in gerbovnik.ru. The resemblance is uncanny. Even the dove has the 3 arrows in its mouth. The fact that the castle is flipped upside threw me off at first. I also thought the bear was a pig. However, I have not come across any other coa that looks like this one. There is a connection there somewhere.

[HannaS]

Mr. Martinoff,
Thank you for your observations. I have been the only one in my family interested in solving all they questions regarding my and my husband's family history. It has taken me years to finally resolve some of them and quite frankly the more one finds, the more questions there are. I guess this is a life-long hobby. Actually, like a drug, it is very addictive. The amount of information I now have regarding heraldry is something I would not have imagined several years ago. Good luck in your search.

[Frank Martinoff]

Dear Hanna,
Yes the resemblance to both coat of arms is there.

But, that is all I can say, maybe your new found contact has further information.

Best wishes with your research,
Frank Martinoff

[Frank Martinoff]

Dear Hanna,

Yes I do feel your pain
since I am in the same shoes as you are
and stuck with my research

Best wishes and keep us updated

[Frank Martinoff]

Dear Hanna,

1. who died and made me a Mr.
2. I am not the expert you need to ask.

3. I do not want you to be desperate,
therefore I looked up your CoA.

There could be many explanations for your variation,
one possibility could be that it is a different family union
(between Korsakov and somebody else),
that we do not know of

I have found a separate (third) CoA with Korsakov-Dondukov
also this one is similar to the other two.
(But has six fields)

For example the Orlov Family had 5 different CoA's all similar to each other,
and the Strogonov family had 4-5 CoA three of them almost
identical

Last possibility is that the engraver just plainly made a mistake,
and accidently switched the tower with the wall-anker
or it is just an earlier version of this CoA
since this region is known to add (through the years) additional signs to their CoA.

But I really would like you to contact
somebody who knows this matter.

And please keep us updated.

Best wishes,
Frank

[HannaS]

Dear Frank,
It is the business woman in me that writes as if I am at work. Sorry.
Yes, you are right about the different versions of the coa. I looked up the 3 different versions of the coa and found them too. In fact, the plain Korsakov version remsembles mine the most. It is the bird that makes a big difference. It is not on the Korsakov coa. I have also tried to find the v. Kirsch family but had very little success. My father-in-law (before his death) left me a lot of papers and photos. However, he always said this was the Kirsch coa which is plain wrong. In his family tree I don't see any Korsakovs. I do know that his parents (both) are from quite old families. This puzzles me a bit. Why would an "adlige" family use the coa of another? Makes no sense. Possiblity is that this was the only heirloom left because fil's family lost all their property and possessions. So the mother passed it on to her son. Anyway, I am getting a headache from thinking about all of this. And by the way, the seal has initials on the other side but they are so curly that I have tried to draw them and can't make heads or tails. Really, I am beginning to feel like Watson but without the Sherlock Holmes. I am just glad that fil's father's family was very easy to find. Don't think I could handle another mystery. :D

[Frank Martinoff]

Dear Hanna,

Here is the Rimsky-Korsakov CoA in Color,
http://www.rulex.ru/01170081.htm

This will give you the name in Russian/Cyrillic
just copy and paste the Russian version in to
www.google.ru
and click the second button for a search in Russia only.

or go to this link for a picture search
http://images.google.ru/images?hl=ru&q= ... 0%BA&gbv=2

http://images.google.ru/images?gbv=2&hl ... a=N&tab=wi

[MHentrich]

Korsakov family coat of arms:
http://vector-images.com/clipart.php?id=13988&lang=en
Rimsky-Korsakov family coat of arms:
http://vector-images.com/clipart.php?id=13956&lang=en
HTH Martin

[HannaS]

Dear Martin,
Thank you for the clip art website. It helps to see in color what it is that I have in black and white. It made me realize that my bird is not a dove but an eagle and my pig a bear. I would have been puzzled forever without seeing the originals.
Hanna

[HannaS]

Dear Frank,
I send you a reply but I think I hit the wrong key. Here is a repeat:
I looked through the old photos in the family folder and saw one of what I believe is the back of a large platter with the exact same coa. There is one difference to be seen which is not visible on the photo I sent: in between the bands of the middleshield there are little x's. I am assuming they are a repetition of the other charges on the large shield-either the crossed swords or the other ones (unknown name) that look like bowed arrows.
Your suggestion that this may be another family connected with the Korsakovs makes the most sense. It could explain the shuffling around of the positions of the charges and the minute differences in the shields. Now comes the question of how, what, and where.
Thank you for your observation. It was something I would not have thought of because I was always under the impression a family had to take on a totally different coa or had to keep the original. Now I know better.
Hanna

[Frank Martinoff]

Dear Hanna,
always glad to help
I hope that the experts come here to my rescue

1. could you send us an image of this plate (high-res)?
2. since I can't see it - is the CoA on the plate in Color or Black and White?
(If it is Black and White, what you call crosses might be just a representation of color)
If your plate is in color, then the crosses should represent crosses.

But until we can see the plate, all we can do is guess.

Guessing in Genealogy might direct you to new possibilities,
but you know what happens when you "assume".
I am trying to help, but my assumptions will not help you!

Also I am glad to see you post your questions,
the more you post on the internet the greater your changes that somebody who might have more information
will come across your posting,
this might take a while, but trust me they will come!

Кирш = KIRSH Карл Васильевич
- Кирш Карл Васильевич [27.8(8.9). 1877-13.12.1919], русский учёный в области теплотехники, профессор. В 1901 окончил Московское высшее техническое учил... Подробнее о Кирш Карл Васильевич +58 слов(а)
Kirhenshtejn August Martynovich - Kirhenshtejn August Martynovich [6 (18) .9.1872, Mazsalatsa, nowadays area Valmierskogo Latvian SSR,-3.11.1963, Riga], the Soviet statesman... More in detail about Kirhenshtejn August Martynovich of +124 words ()

Кирхенштейн Август Мартынович
- Кирхенштейн Август Мартынович [6(18).9.1872, Мазсалаца, ныне Валмиерского района Латвийской ССР,-3.11.1963, Рига], советский государственный деятель, ... Подробнее о Кирхенштейн Август Мартынович +124 слов(а)

DIES SIND NUR BEISPIELE,
These are only examples!

Frank

[HannaS]

Dear Frank,
I am trying to get it scanned. Yes, it is black and white. It is on a white backround which looks like a large dish. I don't think the x's represent a color. They are 3 in each row. I could be wrong. Also the crossed swords on this image show a bump in the middle making me think that both images represent those strange bowed arrows. As soon as I can I will post the photo.
I have to go to work at times so it may take some time.
Sie koennen ganz ruhig Deutsch schreiben. Ich verstehe alles.
Hanna

[HannaS]

Here it is!