Die Familie Zschetzsching(ck)

Hier ist der richtige Ort, um über Stammbäume und die Herkunft von Namen zu diskutieren
This is the location to discuss family trees and the origin of names

Moderator: Christian Ader

Benutzeravatar
Claus J.Billet
Heraldiker
Beiträge: 6659
Registriert: 22.11.2004, 08:57
Wohnort: 70794 Filderstadt
Kontaktdaten:

Beitrag von Claus J.Billet » 28.07.2013, 13:38

Hier darf ich mich der Ansicht von Herrn v. Roy anschließen.
Die im "Nebel" stattfindende Suche artet letztendlich in reine Spekulation aus,
... ohne irgendwelche handfeste Anhaltspunkte. :!:
So traurig das Ergebnis für den Fragesteller sein mag ...
es ist eine "Wappen-Fälschung" :!:
www.Wappen-Billet.de
M.d.IDW.
M.d.WL.
M.d.HGW.
M.d.MWH.
M.d.H.

Benutzeravatar
Frank Martinoff
Mitglied
Beiträge: 3754
Registriert: 12.10.2005, 07:19
Kontaktdaten:

Beitrag von Frank Martinoff » 28.07.2013, 13:44

of course you need to check if he wasn't "Schatzen" all along!

http://en.geneanet.org/search/?name=Sch ... urce=arbre

SR-7v
Mitglied
Beiträge: 680
Registriert: 26.07.2011, 11:30

Dichter Nebel

Beitrag von SR-7v » 28.07.2013, 13:46

Wenn es Tatsache sein sollte, daß der außerehelich geborene FRIEDRICH WILHELM BECHERER anläßlich seiner Einwanderung seinen Namen zu der Form FRANK SCHÄTZEN (CHATSON) änderte, so müßte dieser Vorgang als deed poll (name change through a deed of change of name) bei den Behörden aufzufinden sein!

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 13:49

Es ist ein "Nebel"-Situation, aber ich habe viel mehr Forschung, die zu viel in diesem Forum gestellt werden soll. Das Kind unehelichen geboren am 23. September 1834 als Friedrich Wilhelm Becherer war definitiv die Person, die in Kanada im Jahr 1864 kam als Frank Chatson / Schatzen.

Becherer war der Mädchenname seiner Mutter. Sie war zweimal verheiratet und gebar diesem Sohn nach dem ersten Mann starb im November 1833 in (Bad) Tennstedt. Er hatte 5 ältere Stiefgeschwister/bruder und 4 jüngere Stiefgeschwister/buder-von denen ich identifiziert und zurückverfolgt 6 - alle nach USA und Kanada. Auch, für eine Vielzahl von Gründen / Quellen (Kirchenbücher, Militärstammrolle, etc.) Ich weiß, dass diese Person ist mein UrurGroßvater.

Meine Absichten sind nicht für jede Art von Heraldik beweisen. Ich versuche nur, Hintergrundinformationen über die Familie Zschetzschingck euch alle äußerst hilfreich gewesen zu finden.

Ja, es ist eine schwierige Rätsel und vielleicht nie gelöst werden.

(Bitte akzeptieren Sie meine Entschuldigung für die schlechte Übersetzung.)


Englisch:

It is a "foggy" situation but I have much more research that is too much to be put on this forum. The child born illegitimate on 23 Sept 1834 as Friedrich Wilhelm Becherer was definitely the person who arrived in Canada in 1864 as Frank Chatson/Schatzen. Becherer was his mother's maiden name. She was married twice and gave birth to this son after the first husband died in Nov. 1833 in Tennstedt. He had 5 older half siblings and 4 younger half siblings- of whom I have identified and traced 6- all to USA and Canada. So, for numerous reasons/sources (Kirchenbucher, Militärstammrolle, etc.) I know that this person is my GG Grandfather.

My intentions are not to prove any kind of heraldry. I am only trying to find background information on the Zschetzschingck family which all of you have been extremely helpful.

Yes, it is a difficult puzzle and may never be resolved.

Thank you.
Michael

Benutzeravatar
Frank Martinoff
Mitglied
Beiträge: 3754
Registriert: 12.10.2005, 07:19
Kontaktdaten:

Beitrag von Frank Martinoff » 28.07.2013, 13:53


MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 13:56

Ich habe auch der Adelsfamilie "de Schaetzen" in Belgien kontaktiert. Sie sind sehr liebenswürdig, die einen DNA-Test negativ, unsere Beziehung zu genehmigen.

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 14:07

Hi Frank:

Yes, I have seen these F.W. Becherer's. All are different people. My Becherer's are an old Mühlhausen in Thüringen family.

I cannot find him at any port- arrival or origin. The Mühlhausen Militärstammrolle entry of 1836-1837 records him as F. W. Becherer, son of Friedrich Carl Wiegand. Wiegand was his mother's second husband. Goetze was her first husband.

Wiegand arrived in USA circa 1856. Maybe Chatson was with him under the Wiegand name. Still cannot find him under ANY name- Chatson/Schatzen/Wiegand/Goetze/Becherer.

The Militärstammrolle entry for Frank Schatzen's half brother August Christian Max Wiegand (born 1840) says that the family emigrated to America from (Bad) Langensalza. There are no passports/emigration data for Bad Langensalza according to genealogy experts and the Stadtarchiv there.

Lots of frustration as you can see.

Michael

Benutzeravatar
Frank Martinoff
Mitglied
Beiträge: 3754
Registriert: 12.10.2005, 07:19
Kontaktdaten:

Beitrag von Frank Martinoff » 28.07.2013, 14:20

looks like that also the Becherers and the Wiegands had a problem....

:?: :!:
Edit
I am not sure about Wiegand...since I can't access the book!

Quote
gewerbsmässiges Portraitieren in Malerei und Fotografie um 1850 Thomas Wiegand ... Er lernte seine aus der alten Mühlhäuser Familie Becherer stammende Frau Johanna Friederike kennen, die ... Langensalza als Fotografen in Erscheinung, Schwester Marie heiratete Karl Eisenhardt.135 Cäcilie wurde 1838 in Erfurt ...

http://www.google.de/search?tbm=bks&hl= ... angensalza


http://books.google.de/books?id=ehdIAQA ... CDkQ6AEwAA
Zuletzt geändert von Frank Martinoff am 28.07.2013, 14:30, insgesamt 3-mal geändert.

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 14:24

I have a Zschetzschingk person who may be the father of the child born in 1834:

He was born in 1802 in Langensalza. The birth mother was born in 1804 in Mühlhausen, just a few kilometers away.

The suspect father was a merchant in Erfurt in 1826. The birth mother's first husband was Stadtmusikant Goetze in Mühlhausen who moved to Bad Tennstedt in 1832 and became a merchant. He died in Nov. 1833. It appears the child would have been conceived in Dec. 1833 or Jan. 1834.

The illegitimate child's baptism was witnessed by Oberfeuerwerker FRANCK and Hoboist KRUMPHOLZ. I presume they were military personnel. The 2nd Reitende Kompanie, 4e. Artillerie Brigade Magdeburgisches was garnisoned in Tennstedt from 1832 to 1840. Possibly these witnesses were members of that army unit.

In 1851 there was a Second Leutenat Zschetzschingck in the 4e. Art. Brigade. Name- Maximilian Ferdinand Hermann Z. Also a S.L. FRANCK in same unit.

The merchant in Erfurt in 1826 was Maximilian Ferdinand Z. Was the 4e Art. Brigade Second Leutenat his son? (I need to prove this).

Family legend says that Frank (Schatzen) lived for a time in Alsace Lorraine. From my research- that was not his Mother or Stepfather Wiegand's locations. So it may refer to his biological father's location. Maybe the child was raised by the father?

There is a branch of the Zschetzschingck family, originating from Langensalza, living in Alsace Lorraine but not until the 1880's.

I have many hard facts/documents but I realize there is an element of speculation here, also.
Zuletzt geändert von MichaelSchatz am 28.07.2013, 15:32, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 14:30

Johanna Friederika Becherer, wife of Johann A. Bregazzi, was a cousin of Maria Catharina Becherer, Frank {Schatzen's} mother.
The Bregazzi's daughter Caecelia, married Ferdinand Tellgmann, whose son Oscar was the official photographer to the Kaiser.

The reference you have is to a book authored by Thomas Wiegand. No relation. Just coincidence. I have extract copies of the relevant pages from that book.
Zuletzt geändert von MichaelSchatz am 28.07.2013, 15:42, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 14:39

I need to hire a good researcher in Bad Langensalza and Erfurt. Any possibilities?

SR-7v
Mitglied
Beiträge: 680
Registriert: 26.07.2011, 11:30

Re: Dichter Nebel

Beitrag von SR-7v » 28.07.2013, 14:49

Let's talk about persons born out of wedlock having their mothers' name: It a matter of fact that it is really unusual to change for their fathers' name.

So, if given the very rare case that an illegitimate person replaces the XX-name with the XY-name:

It would be totally illogical if the person would accept such a malapropism "SCHATZEN".

Is there no answer concerning deed poll?

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 15:04

There was no deed poll or official record of name change in Canada. He was naturalized/declared oath of allegiance to Canada in 1875 with name Frank Chatson. Taxation rolls in 1864 is the first year that he appears in Canada (verified by 1901 census as his immigration year) as Frank Chatson.

If there was a name change- was it in Germany? Or did he emigrate circa 1856 to USA and change his name there? In America (USA or Canada) official name changing records were not common if you wanted to change your name upon arrival- you just did it. I do not think there were any laws to regulate this, at that time.

Passenger lists to Canada were not required by Canadian Government until 1865.

Also- when he arrived in a new country and for some reason did not want to associate with his past, he then changed his name to something completely different than his baptized name.

SR-7v
Mitglied
Beiträge: 680
Registriert: 26.07.2011, 11:30

Beitrag von SR-7v » 28.07.2013, 17:46

MichaelSchatz hat geschrieben:There was no deed poll or official record of name change in Canada. He was naturalized/declared oath of allegiance to Canada in 1875 with name Frank Chatson. Taxation rolls in 1864 is the first year that he appears in Canada (verified by 1901 census as his immigration year) as Frank Chatson.
MichaelSchatz hat geschrieben:In America (USA or Canada) official name changing records were not common if you wanted to change your name upon arrival- you just did it. I do not think there were any laws to regulate this, at that time.
A recurring misconception! The truth is: there was (is) no "central bureau of name changes" in Canada (and USA), but: you have to ask the local authorities!

Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change#Canada the situation today:
Like the United States the requirements for a formal name change varies from province to province. With the exception of Ontario, British Columbia and New Brunswick, Canadians must be 18 to change their names and have lived in the province they are changing it in for at least 3 months to a year, depending on province. (In New Brunswick and British Columbia, Canadians must be 19 to change their names, in Ontario 16.) People younger than the provinces age of Majority can change their names if they have their guardians' consent, are legally married, or have a Common law marriage.[29] To change a name, a Name Change application must be submitted to either the Ministry of Government Services, Court of justice or Registrar of civil status. A document such as a birth certificate must be submitted. A statement as to why the name is being changed is needed in most areas and the reason has to be serious. In Canada, a name cannot cause confusion, be used for misrepresentation or fraud and in most cases the name change is announced in newspapers. There is a fee involved and it ranges from $10 to $185 depending on the territory or province.
Well, there must be done a lot more research!
MichaelSchatz hat geschrieben:If there was a name change- was it in Germany?
In continental Europe name changes have been acts of grace, at least an official decree; a deed poll would have been insufficient.

MichaelSchatz
Mitglied
Beiträge: 33
Registriert: 29.08.2008, 00:25
Wohnort: Kanada

Beitrag von MichaelSchatz » 28.07.2013, 21:41

Yes, I agree that I must do more research. I will follow your suggestion but I believe that it is a "long shot" in English with low probability to find proper documentation of a name change sometime between 1856 and 1864 in USA or Canada.

Antworten